Ep #23 | Find Your Niche


Mike Doyle started his animation company, drive 80,  in 2011 with a vision that regular equals boring. He's been told throughout the years to tone down down his message but has strayed from this advice because that's not what separates good from great. If you are going to push the boundaries, you need to draw a line in the sand. If everyone likes you then you are doing it wrong. 

drive 80 strives to work with the risk takers, big thinkers, and those who excite the world with what they create. 

As for his personal background, Mike is just a super passionate guy who sold everything back in March 2015 to travel the US full-time and landed in Raleigh, NC on January 3, 2016. Luckily the internet exists or he'd be pretty broke.



Shantel: Hey Mike! Welcome to the show.

Mike: Hello!

Shantel: We are excited to have you, and can't wait to learn more about your company, Drive 80, and what has inspired you to become an entrepreneur. Do you want to kick us all off with telling the listeners a little bit more about your entrepreneurial journey?

Mike: Yeah! Do you want to know kind of how I started it, or ... You know ... I don't know, where do you want me to start?

Shantel: Yeah, let's start deep ... I mean, let's get ... Were you a four-year-old entrepreneur, a five year ... When did it all start?


Mike: I think when I was little, I remember my mom got me an airbrush system for my birthday, and I remember creating flyers because I wanted to learn how to paint the nails of girls going to prom. I came up with a whole pricing structure and I designed this cool flyer and all this packages, and I never got it off the air, but I was more excited about designing the flyer, and I think I just always had that ... This urge to do my own thing. I think I really started it and took some action when I was 17 and I was in a band with a bunch of buddies, so we ended up quitting college and just touring for a couple of years, and then that broke up and I moved to LA for a little bit. While I was out there, I was just trying to figure things out, and this guy had a t-shirt that I really like, and he mentioned that he designed it and he printed them. I thought, "Oh, man. That's really cool." Because I grew up designing and I was really into that, but it took a backseat to music for a while. Then that lead to buying a computer and realizing I needed to learn how to use Photoshop and Illustrator, started just buying t-shirts and ... You know, I started making t-shirts and designing them with really no purpose in why, which I realized later, that no one really buys anything unless there's a reason for them to personally, like, be attached to it. And that failed, so ... And I was designing shirts on Mac Paint, and hat's what lead back to the whole Photoshop and Illustrator. I came back to Jersey, I went to school for about a year, a technical school, graduated, and just started doing design. And that was pretty much it. Then about a year and a half in, I got a job, I hated it, I hated working for someone. I learned about freelance, and I did that for about 6 years, and then the freelance gigs dried up. And I was like, "Let me start my own company." So then now, six years later, here I am with Drive 80.

Shantel: That's amazing. I want to talk a little bit about the freelance piece. We haven't had any guests on this show yet that went through that route, or at least didn't really dive into, but ... So six years freelance, was that tough? Kind of building a team, and having to go into an office somewhere, even though it was your own business? I'd love to talk about that shift and those emotions there.

Mike: Yeah, it's ... I graduated from my school and I became a junior art director, and I met this guy who did freelance, and I asked, "How do you do it?" He said, "Well, I charge anywhere from 75 to a 150 dollars an hour." That just blew my mind because I was 25 at the time and I was like, "Oh my god, that's so much money." And I was like, "Well, how do you get into it?" He said, "Well, you just kind of start picking ... Taking projects on the side outside of work." So during the day, I was a junior art director for this pharmaceutical brand, and it sucked and I hated it, and I'd go home and I was living by myself in an apartment. I would get a six pack of beer, and I would just start designing things, and I just started learning web stuff. Then I started telling people about it, and they'd say, "Oh, I need website." And I would come and say, "Well, what are you looking for?" And I had no idea, I had never built a website. I'd come in super low to start. I'd say, "Look, I'll do it for 500 bucks." Or 200 bucks, I think that was my first website. I'll do the website, I'll design it, I'll program it, and I'll launch it for you for 200 bucks. They're like, "Sure." And even though I didn't ... You know, earn any money, the experience is what you really want to gain in the beginning. So you want to go in low, because you want to be able to take on something small, not that much risk, and learn ... Because you're going to make so many mistakes, but the mistakes are kind of fun, and you have to make the mistakes to mold yourself into what you're going to become. Then when you get more comfortable, and you do it over and over, then you start increasing your prices, and then you have to learn how to ask people for more money, and that's an interesting thing. So yeah, you kind of just balance it, during the day, you do day job, and at night, you just kind of take on the projects that surround the thing that you want to do. And then, hopefully, you just decide to quit or an opportunity comes along, and someone says, "I have enough freelance work for you where you can just come on board with me." And that was the case with me. But in that sense, that was interesting because I quit my full-time job, started working for him. I was charging 65 bucks an hour, but he kept bouncing checks on me. So that's a whole other experience where you need to make sure you have contracts with people, and you can't ever just have one client be the majority of your business because then you're kind of handcuffed to them, and if the ship ever goes down for them, you're screwed. That was a big lesson.

Shantel: Yeah, I bet. Absolutely. Can you tell the audience a little bit more about Drive 80?


Mike: Drive 80 started off ... I kind of gave you the really short version about, like starting off for a while as freelancing, I started all these different partnerships with friends and it was all these business partnerships and I tried them, and they'd fail because I just hated working with other people. The last one I did, we actually started to really go in a good direction, and right at the end of the year of our first year being together, the partnership just disintegrated. It was like a hard cut, and I was like, "You know what ..." And we had established an LLC, and I was like, "You know, I really want to do a business." And we established an LLC, and so when I started Drive 80, it was an LLC that ... And I was like, "Well, I'll do everything." And about 6 months into doing everything, I realized that my week was just too scattered. One week would be brochures and stickers and a website, and the next week would be a video production and photography, and there was really no direction. So I read a book called, "Built to Sell", and he talked about doing one thing really well, and that was all you focused on. So I was like, "Well, video isn't going anywhere at all, and it's only increasing." This was around the time that YouTube became the number two search engine, so I said, "Let me just go strictly with video, I'm saying no to everything else." In about six ... four months after that, I decided to narrow it down even more to animation. That's something I'd also been doing for a really long time, and I did it to explain in a video, and someone said, "That's a really super niched down thing that I think is going to catch on." And I said, "Alright, I'm going to do that." And that's why ... Somebody just said that, Drive 80 would just become an animation studio, that's all we would do just to explain our videos, and that's all I've done since 2000 ... Since right about the end of 2012.

Shantel: That's amazing, yeah, we ... A little bit about our company, we haven't had a chance to talk about, but social media marketing and we've been really intentional about being hyper-focused on just handling social and not saying that we do PR and websites for similar reasons, it sounds like that book mentioned. Ours was a little less intentional, we just didn't know how to do those things, so we said we didn't do them. But then, you know, it's evolved from there. I'm glad that you caught onto that and mentioned that book. I'll have to read that as well.

Mike: Yeah, it's ... That's the biggest thing too, about doing entrepreneurship, is you have to read ... You should really read a lot of books, and if you hate reading and it's not really intriguing to you, it might not be the best direction for you. You know, you have to follow the fire that you have, and I hated reading as a kid. I absolutely hated it. I really started reading when I was like ... 20. I think I was 22 when I read the first Harry Potter book, and it was probably the only thing I ever got through cover to cover. But then after that, I was like, "Well, I don't really like fantasy. I just like that story." But when I caught onto entrepreneur books, I got this, "Wow, I'm really excited about this.", because there was this learning thing that I had been missing. You know, you learn from all these people. If you read a 600 page book, you're not really buying that 600 pages, you're buying like a sentence or a paragraph or ... a couple of sentences that someone does, and you're like, "Holy shit." Sorry, I'm swearing now.

Shantel: That's okay.

Mike: You know, it's that "ah-ha" moment, and that was the biggest thing with that book. You know, don't be good at everything, be great at one thing. It keeps you really focused. I literally say "no", probably about 90 percent of the time, and my friends all yell at me. They're like, "Why aren't you designing, you'd be making so much money." It doesn't ... It strays from my focus. If my focus is off, then I feel frustrated, I don't internally feel good, and my whole day and week is completely off. So that's what I got from that.

Shantel: Do you have a team that you have to explain that vision to as well?

Mike: The way I have it set up now is that I'm using freelancers for bigger projects. So depending on the size of the budget, if it's a smaller budget, I'll take it on from beginning to end. If it's a larger budget, I can have my copywriter, designer, animator, come in and help out. And in that sense, I kind of ... I think they kind of know that, because I hire them based on them doing one thing really well. If I get a copywriter, I just want them to write copy, and that's all they do. A designer, I just want them to love designing and geek out on that, I don't want them to go, "Oh, I'm an animator too." Well, I mean, you kind of can have that, but if you're just really passionate at that one thing, the product's going to be so much better, because if you're learning ... If you just love design, you're constantly looking at other designers, you're comparing yourself and you're pushing yourself in design and you want to get better. But if you're scattered and you're just doing, "Oh, I'm design but I'm also writing copy for a website, I'm also designing a UX for a website." There's really no ... There's no direction and they're not that good. I don't really explain that vision, I guess things like this is where I kind of get that out there. But other than that, I don't sit them down and say, "I need you to just be great at this thing." You know, like constantly stress that. But I'll maybe mention it, and they're kind of like, "Okay, cool. I just really want to eventually get paid."

Shantel: No, I mean I'm sure even in the process, like when you turn something over them, they may not be able to articulate it, but it's probably pretty apparent that it's what you want them to be focusing on.

Mike: Yeah, you know it's ... I think they get it, and you know, I talk with a lot of enthusiasm when I talk to people, and I try to hire people that ... I get on a Skype with them or have a conversation and I'm like, "What's your favorite song? What's your favorite band?" Don't give me this ... Don't try to sell me, don't send me your resume, don't send me this crap. Like, I saw your work, it's good. Who are you like as a person? Are we going to get along? Are you passionate about things? What excites you? And they're kind of thrown by that sometimes, because I think freelancers and designers and creatives, they get stuck in this ... I think they get treated like these robots, it's like, "Just do this, monkey dance." And when someone comes in and actually treats them with respect, they're really thrown by that. And they're like, "Wait a minute. You can actually give me creative freedom?" I'm like, "Yeah. This is what you're good at, so just do really well, and I'm not going to get in your way."

Shantel: I want to talk a little bit about the video industry right now, and future trends. Where do you anticipate ... I know you mentioned video is still huge and I certainly recognize that too, but do you see it shifting? How has your business changed in the last year?


Mike: The biggest thing that I noticed is the ... Video, the reason I chose video because all you have to do is hit play and pause. There's nothing that will break it. When I used to do flash animations, you can hit one thing wrong, and the whole website would crash, or things would go all wrong. With video, the best thing about it is that it's play and pause. Now, within that small region, there's all this playfulness that you can really do with it, and now that Facebook has a header, the size of videos now changing to square and with that skin you're getting more ... I have a podcast myself, and I did an interview with someone from Buffer, and they were saying that square videos are getting more engagement than landscape videos. That's huge, and now Facebook is ... 85 percent of it's seen with audio off, because people are typically on their phones in public or let's say, in a bathroom or in a train or wherever they are, and they're watching it. So the things I've seen is needing captions and building it so it's going to fit in Instagram or Facebook, because that's where people are watching these things. Within that becomes a new dynamic of, "What should the story be?" If you have a Facebook header, you can sit there and just have things kind of flash by, or you can maybe be playful with it. Make it become ... Like you're breaking the third wall down, you're being meta. I think it'd be a cool video if someone was on Facebook and they know people aren't watching it with sound on if they kind of just pretended like they were there knocking on the glass pretending like, "Hey!" And doing mime-like things, like they're trapped or something. I think they have to be playful, and so with video, you have to just ... The thing I see is you just have to really think differently and break outside of what everyone else is doing, and that's what's going to keep you ... That's what's going to make it effective.

Shantel: I love that. How do you stay inspired to create new and different projects for all of the clients that you're working with?

Mike: I just ... At the beginning of the year, I had a business coach/someone just yells at me on Mondays and says, "Your ideas suck." It's like literally one ... He's pretty popular in the entrepreneurial world, and I lucked out by getting this ability to just text him. Every Monday I text him like, "Where are you at? And I'll just tell you if it's good or bad." And when ... In the beginning of last year, he said, "Alright, take a piece of paper and just write down, really simple, what's your vision for the year? What's your goal, and what are five things that you want to accomplish? Write it down, physically write it down on a piece of paper." So the thing that leads back to me staying motivated is I said my mission was fun and my 'why' is freedom. And I'd wake up and say, "Okay, well, I could potentially have 200 bucks in my bank account, which I've talked about before in my own like marketing, or whatever. I'm like, "Crap, this is pretty stressful." But, I also don't have to rush to work, I don't have to sit in traffic because I live two blocks from my office. I can go home during the day and walk my dog, and no one's going to yell at me. Just the pure freedom of that, when you really attach yourself to it, it's really inspiring, and that makes you go, "Okay, I can literally carve my day out. What do I want to do?" Sometimes, I'll be at work on a project, I'm like, "Well, I have enough time, I can get it done. I'm just going to ... What do I want to do? I want to do my own animations today." So I'll just say no to everything, I'll turn everything off, I'll turn off emails, I'll stop talking to people, and I'll just create some stuff on my own. It's like you have to find out, "Why do you do it?" And do it. It's never this golden moment, where it's just presented to you, it's like "Here's your time to do this." Everyone's waiting for that ... "When this happens", that this will happen, or someday ... It's every day, and you have to stop and say, "I'm going to take control of this and literally be excited and have fun, because I can."

Shantel: I'm really glad you mentioned that, I think as an entrepreneur there's always something you can be doing, or you can be learning, or you can be changing and making better, and sometimes ... At least for me, that can become very overwhelming, like the endless list of things that need to get done at some point, but it's ...

Mike: But they don't. Honestly ... Sometimes they really don't, if you're getting paid, yes. But sometimes you just step away and say, "What happens if I don't do that?" What really happens? Because ... I was thinking about it today while I was waiting for ... I was waiting for a check from a client and it came, it came out of nowhere, like o'clock. I didn't even know the mail comes that early. Or actually, no it was 1 o'clock, I was walking my dog and I checked my mailbox, and I'm like, "Holy crap. Oh my god, it finally came." And I'm thinking to myself, that in that moment was so stressful, but I've had those moments happen before where I was like, "This is everything, this is the moment." And then it goes away, and as soon as it's done, I don't even think about it anymore. My point is that, there's these things that we think are, "Oh, we're always going to be stressed about this, we're always going to ... It's always going to be this big thing." And it's not. All of those big things we always thought about, you couldn't go back and say, "Oh my god, I remember that. Oh yeah, that was such a big thing ..." And you can laugh at it now, you know. So these things that you think you really need to do, literally prioritize and say, "You know, what is the one thing I need to do to have this be a successful year?" And if none of those things go towards that, then stop doing them.

Shantel: Well, I'm sure that ... I think that's great, and I'm sure that weighs heavily though, on how everyone defines success, and success is maybe one thing for one person, and another for another. Do you write your goals each year, and you just have that one thing as opposed to a couple of things you're working on?


Mike: I try ... My goal this is year was not very ... My goal was very personal this year, I had a lot of really crazy personal stuff happen. And 2014 until now was really getting over a lot of this insane stuff. My goal has mostly been ... You know, my life. I really just ... My personal well-being, really. I wasn't trying to kill myself or anything, it sounds like it was a little bit extreme. But I had some really bad stuff go down personally, and I was like trying to get out and get the smoke to clear. Within that, I was like questioning it, did I really want to do my business and did I really want to do all these things? So my goals this year were more focused personally and really being excited that way in the business, I kind of found my way back into it. I always teetered, but I really got excited for it towards the end of last year into this year. My goal has been more monetary instead of like ... Do ten amazing videos that helps people battle cancer. That would be an extremely amazing why, and that's something that's passionate. I need to make 100 grand this year, you know, that's the one goal where you're kind of like, "Eh." There's nothing exciting about that. So my goal for 2018 would be to have a passionate goal, to have something that's business connected. So this, it's really just been more "make this, or sell this", or something, and it's ... You know, it's really been just, "do what I want to do to have fun in the business, and stick to that." It's kind of what's been keeping going.

Shantel: Nice, if you don't mind diving in a little bit, I think ... As mental health is really important and setting personal goals and not letting your job, and work and your career, and your business consume all of your thoughts, so I think it's really neat that you really focus on one year specifically just on personal elements. Were there processes or a tactics that you put in week to week, to kind of monitor how you're tracking ... I mean, did you practice meditation, or yoga or ...?

Mike: Yeah.

Shantel: What were some of those things that you did?

Mike: A lot of that stuff. There was one month in May, I bet my buddy $1000 that I could quit drinking for 30 days, and I did. I think for me, I need penalties, so there's that. I was really big in ... I've been big into crossfit for the last seven years, but ... these past three months in the summer, I'm like totally fell off of it, big time. But leading up to that, I was like, I changed the way I ate, I was focused on that. I would write down on a piece of paper ... How did I do it? So there was a bunch of things that I did, let me kind of hone this in. January 1st, I just started posting Instagram videos saying what I was grateful for. So every day I'd wake up and I'd take my phone out and say, "I'm grateful for the road, because it helps me get to work." Or, "I'm grateful for the people that sell me coffee every day because they're super awesome and I appreciate that." That's a big thing that I've learned that all successful entrepreneurs ... Successful people have always done. The biggest thing I could say, if anyone is going to get anything out of this podcast, write down what you're grateful for, or even think about one or three things every morning you're grateful for, and it changes everything. That's been super inspiring. There's a thing called a five minute journal, it's really helpful. I definitely recommend anyone buy that, pay the 16 bucks. It's amazing. Writing down, journal is good. Anytime I exercise, I'll meditate. I like meditating a little bit a lot. I do that. It fluctuates sometimes on, and then sometimes completely off. I also had a piece of paper out that just said ... What was it, it said "Ate well, drank, exercised, meditated, something else." And I would say yes or no. It would be a day of the week, and I would put a yes or no across from it. I wouldn't do anything else. It just kept it really easy, so I could track after 30 days or 60 days, "Okay, well this is why my weight's here, because I have a lot of "yes" in drinking." Or a lot of "yes's" in eating crappy. That was a really interesting way to keep track of those things, especially with pen and paper, it's really good. It fires off a lot of neurons and activates just ... more ... I can't really think of it. If you type things, you don't attach yourself to it as much. Let's see, what else? Yeah, a lot of stuff like that.

Shantel: I think that's great. What I'm learning about all of the great entrepreneurs that we're having a chance to chat with on the podcast is that, everyone's motivated enough to come up with a system or a process if there's not already something out there. Like you wrote something on a piece of pen and paper, and that helped you stay motivated, as opposed to making an excuse of like, "Oh, I don't know how to track this, or ..." I think that's great.

Mike: Yeah, I need an app. I need to download this app, or I need to create this app. No, pen and paper, it's all you need, is pen and paper.

Shantel: Exactly. Mike, let's shift gears a little bit and talk about your top strength. What do you think that top strength would be, and how do you use it every day?

Mike: I think my ability to be vulnerable. I'm completely fine with being vulnerable. There was a ... What's the book? Brene Brown?

Shantel: I haven't heard that.


Mike: It's a really successful book right now ... Brene Brown? She was ... It's this book about being vulnerable, and it's huge. She does Ted-Talks and stuff. I read the book, and I'm kind of like, "Alright, why is this such a thing?" And I sent it to somebody, and they said, "This is so scary." I'm like, "Really? Doing that's scary?" I didn't see it, and I thought, "Wow, I kind of have that down." I don't, you know ... There's certain things where I post and I get really scared if someone makes a comment and it does affect me. I'm not saying like, I have ... I'm the man of steel or anything. I'm definitely vulnerable in areas with comments and things, and they definitely do affect me. But I have this ability to just ... I don't know, open up to people, and I think that helps them open up to me. I know I've had a lot of conversations with people through the years, and they're like, they'll literally say, "I don't know why I'm telling you this, but ..." And it's like this really deep thing, and I think it's because I spent the first ... I don't know, whatever, how much time that we've met each other really just talking and just letting all my stuff out, and they're like, "Holy crap. This is kind of a safe space, now I can let that out." I think the biggest thing that anyone should do, if someone is speaking to you, or they're expressing themselves, look them in the eye, don't interrupt them, and don't change the subject and make it about yourself. That is the ... I can't stand that. People are focused and really opening up to you, like really engage and active listen and throw questions back with what they're saying, so they actually know that I'm hearing them. I can't stand when I'm talking to somebody and they'll literally cut me off and say like, "Oh there's that thing on the ground that I was looking for." And I'm like, "Are you even here? Where is your mind?"  Where is your mind? Everyone's mind is so fast, because of technology now, it's like, slow down, absorb. Yeah, so ...

Shantel: That's tough.

Mike: Hopefully that answers your question.

Shantel: No, it did, yeah. I think vulnerability, for sure. What is something that you're not very good at?

Mike: Having people tell me what to do. Unless I ask them to do, I don't like people giving me unwanted advice and or telling me that what I'm doing isn't realistic. I hate that. I can't stand someone who is like, "Oh, well, we've got to be realistic." Based on whose reality? Don't take me into your world, where you have so many laws and it's so limited and confining and small. That's where you live, don't bring other people in there, because that just kills me. I get more mad, I'm like, "Are you trying to stop me? Are you literally trying to get in my way?" Because that really bothers me.

Shantel: That business coach of yours, how is that going? He tells you no every day.

Mike: He's ... But I welcome that. When I ask someone to tell me, I am wide open. I am completely wide open to it. I'm like, "Alright, tell me the worst thing right now." They'll say it, and I'm like, "Ugh. Crap, I asked for it." I'm like, "Okay." So if I'm inviting it, absolutely. If I'm not, then I get really mad. I get really defensive. I'm like, "Go screw yourself, like really?"

Shantel: Alright Mike, I've got a couple more questions for you, to wrap it up. What is next on the horizon for Drive 80?

Mike: It's really just to ... I don't know, I'm trying to find ways to create videos that are already pre-made and sell them as is with little customization. I think that would be a lot better to automate. Like I did a project, you know ... Jess from Headbands of Hope, she had introduced us. We did a real simple thing, she sent me this blinking text and it was like, "Sale". She's like, "Can you do this?" And I looked at it and sent it back to her in 10 minutes, "You mean like this?" She's like, "Oh my god, can you do that?" And I said, "Sure, give me 10 phrases." Give me 10 phrases like, "For sale", "Coming Soon", "Ends Friday." Something about deals where she could use it as animated gifs and email blasts online or the video could be on Instagram and things like that so people know when there's a sale. I thought, "Wow, how cool would it be if I just made a 10-pack like that of these videos and sell them as is with four colors, like the letters would change in four colors." And I would just say, "You can buy this for 20 bucks, but to customize it, just the colors would be 65 bucks, and if you want your own words, that would be 125 bucks." I'm trying to find things like that to put out there where, you know ... When you sell 10 or 20 of them, it's like a thousand, two thousand, three thousand bucks that could be coming in faster. So that's what I'm trying to get Drive 80 to get to, is putting out products that are as is and people buy them.

Shantel: I like that, yeah. I'm excited to see where that goes. I mean, I think there's certainly a niche for that. Especially if people don't have a bigger budget to do something custom.

Mike: Yeah, that's the big thing, a lot of people, a lot of entrepreneurs ... They'll come to me and say, "Oh, I really want this animation done to explain our video in 60 seconds." I'm like, "Our pricing starts at like four grand. You know, for 60 seconds, and that's if you give us a script." I'm charging certain clients up to like, $12,000. You know, people are like, "Oh, I can't afford that." I know, you shouldn't be paying for that as an entrepreneur, if you have $12,000 and you've saved that much money, spend it somewhere else. That kind of stuff is for someone who's got a $100,000 a year budget, and this is one key component, because that's going to be used for years in that market strategy. You know, people are like, "I need that big thing." No, you don't. Just spend that money in other ways, you can really stretch that out. It shouldn't be with me.

Shantel: Yeah. No, that's great. I think that goes back to that ... Well, maybe not the word vulnerable, but just the honesty, I really admire.

Mike: Yeah, I'll tell people all the time. "Look, don't ... Why would you spend that money with me?" I know that what we do works, but that's stupid. I don't even spend $4,000 on marketing sometimes. I can also make a lot of it, but I find ways to really make a budget stretch.

Shantel: Definitely. Well Mike, how can people get in touch with you if they're interested in learning more about your company or just you as an entrepreneur?

Mike: You can go to Drive80.com, you can also email me personally. Mike@drive80.com if you have any questions about animation. Or honestly, if you have a question about entrepreneurship, you can just email me and ask me that. I tell people this all the time and they never do it, but the door is always open. If you have a question, email me. I've been through so much stuff. Yeah, I'm nowhere near being like this crazy millionaire or anything, but I have lived by my own rules since 2006, and even more by my own rules since 2012. So you know, I put the time in to be ... I don't have a boss, and I make my own ways. So even if that's something that intrigues you, I can always answer those questions.

Shantel: Well, thank you Mike. I really appreciate your time, and yeah. I really appreciate it.

Mike: Absolutely, thanks for having me on, this was awesome.

Shantel: Of course.